Swami Says he is a Sex Doctor (Full)
Audio & Transcript (coming soon)
Interviewer: So, inviting. I have to listen to things a few times.
Swami: Don't worry. Don't worry. I'm telling you again, I sometimes have the same reaction from men because I'm a rooster. You are a rooster, so you are competing with me. So men get this goal against me because who this guy thinks he is. He thinks that he's big.
Swami: But that's not a wise reaction and it's not something which is based on any realistic thing. It's just an organic hormonal reaction in which you challenge somebody for supremacy.
Interviewer: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's the yang, it's testosterone, whatever you want to call it.
Swami: I'm not here for that. I'm not here to compete with people about this. I'm here to do my work and so on. The second thing is as you said, if the ego is big, then the ego is being provoked because your ego is afraid because if you are going to stay with me here in the school, I'm going to clap your ego, and I'm going to tell you to start diminishing that ego.
Interviewer: And my ego wants to do the same to you, obviously.
Swami: Yeah. Okay, but I am the teacher and you are not. When I will come to your school then you will do that to me, right? Right now I didn't visit you and I'm not seeking your advice.
Interviewer: Yes, absolutely.
Swami: So that's why I'm happy where I am. And you can say, "I'm also happy where I am." Yeah, sure, then visit my like a tourist from time to time and say hi. But in the moment when you visit my like a pupil, it means you are needy. You are in trouble and then, of course, you listen to what I have to say.
Swami: So if I am in trouble, let's say you are a doctor and I'm sick. I'm coming and visiting you and then you are telling me so I'm going to have to take this green pill three times per day and I do, because, you know ... So I take advice from you but when I have a problem. Right now I don't have a problem and your ego must not be upset that I'm not taking the advice from you. Because I take advice from you when I need it so this school is made for people who come to take advice from me and from the senior teachers of this school.
Swami: And that's why they shouldn't give us advice about how to do our job. If they become part of the school, then they can give us as much advice as they want and we can improve and improve and we do. Our senior teachers are doing that all the time so that's the thing. So I understand you have a problem-
Interviewer: Yeah, this is the journey just and witnessing my ego and it's relationship to the school and [crosstalk 00:02:27].
Swami: I am a man who in my life had a few very good male friends. Like I made friendship with men very easily because I'm not a competitive person. I'm not very ego-centric, I think. I know it's for others to see if that's true or not. And that because of this is very easy for me to let go and to make space for others. And I'm not trying to put myself first or something. So my experience is that if you would know me better, we'd probably become friends.
Swami: So it's like a ... I rejoice in the friendship with men. If I would be an alpha male kind of ... I would not tolerate any men around me and there will be a big ring space around me where men are not allowed. But that's not the case and that's not my life. In my life, I'm surrounding myself with male friends quite a lot and I've excellent relationships with the men. And it's just a matter if you have the patients, the karma, the interest to come close to me. Because there are men with whom I could become friends but I'm not interested in the least because they lead a lifestyle and something which is not down my alley. Maybe for you to live in [Ko Pha-ngan 00:03:53] and to be a yoga teacher and to be vegetarian and whatever, it sucks. It's like it's a stupid thing.
Swami: So then you won't become my friends but simply because you're interested in airplanes and electronics and I'm interested in standing on my head and praying to God. So it's like it depends if we fall in the same departments. But if we fall in the same department, you could try to know me better and to have a friendship and in this way, it will be very encouraging.
Interviewer: I mean, I've noticed the desire to understand you more. And I've come to the conclusion that-
Swami: Or maybe you like Muktananda, maybe you like Ram, maybe you like some of the senior teachers of the school who seem to you more available, more close. And then you are-
Interviewer: I'm trying to work out if my ... The question that arises is are my reasons for desiring friendship pure. Because I'm sort of trying to second guess like is it because I'm ... is it that I have a desire for influence, for example. Because then I would want ... If that was what it was, I would want to like get closer to people that have influence or something like that.
Interviewer: So I'm always trying to second guess like why am I interested in this, why am I-
Swami: That's again, a manipulative because [inaudible 00:05:12] and power. And this is from manipulative. You can learn in yoga, in Agama or elsewhere, but in Agama also you can learn how to make that in a harmonious way. If that's one of the needs of your soul and you feel that in this life I want to be a person of influence and of risk, you can really learn how to do that. And that is not only that you are sitting in front of a group of people and explaining to them you punish us or something like this. That can be in many other ways and you can learn how to do those things.
Interviewer: But my parents were teachers. I mean, I think I've always felt like desire at some point in my life to have an influence but I'm such a perfectionist-
Swami: Yeah, that's the problem.
Interviewer: ... that I'm probably going to be waiting way too long before doing something about it.
Swami: That's exactly the problem, the perfection is a problem. [inaudible 00:06:02].
Interviewer: On the cusp. I mean, it's-
Swami: Aries on the cusp with Taurus.
Interviewer: With Pisces.
Interviewer: But I've got a Gemini moon and a Cancer, also. I don't know the details but it's an interesting combination.
Swami: I mean, Aries, it's a very competitive combination. And I didn't have many Aries friends or close in my life. And it's a well-known thing in Agama that very seldom do we get Aries men to come and subject themselves to the meat grinder of yoga. It's only that their ego is the strongest. The Aries' and the Leo's are the men that have the strongest egos in the zodiac almost.
Swami: But you and I are sitting here because you are having a keen mind, you understand, you want to study. I'm a discriminative sharp clear person. We might fit with each other on an intellectual level like you might be exhilarated by my intelligence and I might be exhilarated by yours. We may really understand like when we converse say it's parts will come in the conversation and we'll be feeling so alive and so on because we found somebody to match.
Interviewer: Yeah. It's hard to find people that I can engage with.
Swami: I know.
Interviewer: [inaudible 00:07:25], your nephew I think is, he said he enjoyed my company and he also didn't find that there were that numerous people that-
Swami: Yeah, let's talk.
Interviewer: I mean, I have so much appreciation for Agama and what you've created here.
Swami: And again, Agama might not be down your alley. You and I might be doing this and then from this, you'll derive another thing which I didn't have the energy or the time to do which is completely your thing.
Interviewer: There's always a part of me that likes to referring thing including other people things which isn't always appreciated. And I have to curve my enthusiasm.
Swami: Because lack is that this chakra is not very well developed yet.
Swami: Yeah. So if you would work two years on Anahata-
Interviewer: I think I need to.
Swami: ... you would be a very different person. Like every day, every day on Anahata. Because then if you have this Anahata thing, you are not trying to change people too much.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Swami: It's like you are no ... who am I to help you cross the street especially if you are not asking me to help you to cross the street.
Interviewer: Yeah, yeah.
Swami: No, I won't push you across the street because I think it's the best thing for you. Agama should have a street light in the middle of the campus and so on. You can't do it if we don't want to have it. You can't push us to do it if we don't ... This is exactly what I'm saying, sometimes people won't transform if they don't want to transform.
Interviewer: I think [crosstalk 00:08:56]. I do feel like I need to ... there's a bit of a numbness here.
Swami: Yeah, [crosstalk 00:08:58].
Interviewer: I know, with my girlfriend I'm feeling like I-
Swami: How much yoga have you done, until what level?
Interviewer: Only until level three. I've been hitting level one.
Swami: Three. So you have learned from Pranayama already.
Interviewer: Yes, but [crosstalk 00:09:09].
Swami: So by doing Pranayama every day half an hour, either you are chanting, ah, or simply doing Pranayama, hold air, and focus all the energy here, here, here, here. This will give you a huge change, a huge change. Like in six months there will be a psychologically very clear change although in my intuition, the way I feel people, it will take around two years to kind of stabilize it, to make it a thing of your life.
Interviewer: I mean, my inpatients is saying that's [inaudible 00:09:41], but obviously, that's just [crosstalk 00:09:41].
Swami: Yeah, I can understand that and I'm also sometimes impatient and so on. But it's about you. It's about you. When you have more Anahata, then people will love you more.
Interviewer: And daily.
Swami: They will feel you more considerate, more kind, more ... people will feel a certain softness from you. So then people will love that.
Swami: People will love that and it would be good for your influence. People will acknowledge you more when you would be able to give something from here. But people need that and they are looking for people who can give something from there.
Interviewer: My girlfriend is really loving. And it's like the desire to work Anahata is being increased by associating with here and seeing like how loving she is. And I'm feeling like oh, I need to get up to speed sort of thing. Now, okay, there's something that's been holding me back, I think, in terms of going through the levels. Because, I mean, I've been holding back.
Interviewer: And it's partly the gossip, but it's also partly my own struggle to understand your world, or your practices at the [inaudible 00:11:03]. Because my understanding of them is making me struggle to see how based on what I believe to be true, based on the people that I'm close to and tell me, I'm finding it hard to perceive that you're for example practicing Satiam, which I'm sure you believe that you are and therefore-
Swami: No, no, no. I'm doing a lot of white lies. I'm saying it openly when I do the Satiam lectures. So it's not ... because there sometimes I don't tell the whole truth or something just because I think it's more constructive for the pupils and for the world.
Swami: I have an excuse. I don't know if that excuse is realistic or not, that excuse maybe some megalomaniac psychopathic thing in my mind in my mind. So it's like of course, from outside I can be judged but inside me, I'm consistent with what I teach. I have integrity.
Interviewer: So would you say that you practice Satiam?
Interviewer: And so that when you do a white lie, is there a violence that you're avoiding? Because I'm trying to understand, maybe I'm being too strict in my practice because I'm very precise.
Swami: Yeah, sometimes for avoiding violence but not only.
Interviewer: No only.
Swami: You have to deal with the evolutionary needs of the people.
Interviewer: So white lies are-
Swami: So if I'm trying to guide some situations in my own way.
Interviewer: So white lies are something that perhaps I should be a bit more open-minded to practicing.
Swami: It's a difficulty but I'm glad you're asking me it. But it's a difficult thing and it comes from a complex of superiority. And I'm not saying it in a pathological way. But spiritual people sometimes think that they have a right which the commoners don't have. Like I'm Robin Hood and Robin Hood occasionally killed people and robbed people-
Interviewer: I was just looking at-
Swami: ... and he was the good guy. He was considered, he considered himself to ...
Swami: He was the good guy.
Swami: He was considered ... He considered himself to be the good guy.
Swami: So, it's like when you are where I am, you can bend some rules and break some things. At the same time, still considering that you are the good guy. If that is real, then God will clap you on the shoulder and you are okay. If that was just a megalomanic pathology, then you are fucked. Because then you become a monster and you keep justifying it with pathetic excuses.
Interviewer: So, you're hoping that you're not that?
Swami: Which has been done. Like what was the Spanish Inquisition, right? Or wrong? When the Spanish Inquisition burnt some people at stake, did the actually save their souls or they just thought so? If they saved their souls, when the Inquisition people die, God hugged them. And he said, "My son, you've done good work." And our egos might be very pissed off and then I said, "No Swami, you can say such a thing. You can't be acceptable." "How do you know? You don't know how God thinks." Yeah, so that's why I'm saying they're different values. The spiritual world is a world of different values where some things are measuring more than other things. Like for Goodyear, he sold birds to a man, fake birds, and he took the money. So robbing some people didn't matter as much as having a spiritual school running. He thought that his work with spiritual improvement or people was much more important than the snobbish money of some people who wants to buy some exotic birds. Therefore, Goodyear was having a complex of superiority.
Swami: He thought, I'm more important than all those guys.
Interviewer: I have those moments myself. I mean, I was looking at the ants on your step, and I was reminded of a very early Star Trek episode, where this man became so intelligent or enlightened, that he started to look at his fellow humans as like ants. And most people wouldn't think twice about squashing an ant. So, he was looking at humans in the same way because he felt so superior. And so one of the questions I wanted to ask you was, how ... You must, well I'm assuming now, but I'm wondering if you ... It sounds like you have experienced this superiority.
Interviewer: And is it like ... Do you value humility and if so?
Swami: Enormously. Enormously. That's exactly what we need to practice besides it. Like I measured my IQ two times. They couldn't measure it, it was off the scale. Both times it came over 155, that's what they could tell me. That it's bigger than 155.
Swami: Did I ever bother to go to whatever they are called? And measure ... There is an organization in the United States which measures, not Mensa, that's only 155. It's called MATHA or something. It's MEGA or something. I didn't go. And I'm not ... You hear me telling you because we have a talk like from a Mani cura person to a Mani cura person, and from an intelligent person to an intelligent. And I can talk about it, but at the same time, I advise in my lecturers often, and I am trying as much as possible, we need practice humbleness.
Swami: Because without humbleness we become monsters.
Interviewer: Stephen Fry-
Swami: Especially the people who are intelligent and strong, they can become monsters very easily.
Interviewer: Yeah. I could easily be the next Hitler if I wasn't careful.
Interviewer: I mean, Stephen Fry, he's a good ... I don't know if you know the actor, but when I see him on television, he's so intelligent, but he's got such humility, that he's someone I-
Swami: I'm not seeing his face so I'm not ... I don't know who you are talking about.
Interviewer: Was that our time up, that noise?
Swami: No. That was the next office hour which I have. But we started a bit late, and since you made such an effort to come and talk to me, feeding your own ego in a way. Confronting it.
Interviewer: Just sitting on the step, I'm sort of like noticing an attachment to a certain outcomes, and just attached, detached, detach.
Swami: In the world of spirituality, we do have a complex of superiority. Exactly like Jesus told to his disciples. "You are the salt of the earth. If even a hair on your head shall not be touched if my father in heaven doesn't wish it." All of them were murdered and killed.
Swami: So, they were humble, they accepted to taken where they were ... Where a normal person wouldn't be taken. But Jesus was injecting in to them, a complex of superiority. Like you are special, and my teaching will go to the world through you. And if you disappear, the whole world is fucked. The whole world depends on your word. In spirituality, this complex of superiority exists.
Swami: But the question is, that if it becomes pathological and ugly, then you are just drowning in your ego. If you put in a lot of heart and a lot of compassion, then it's not becoming ugly. That simply says, remember Buddha thinks that he is smarter and better than you. Buddha, that's what he thinks.
Interviewer: The Buddha?
Swami: The Buddha. Yeah.
Interviewer: The Buddha.
Swami: The Buddha thinks that he's smarter and better than you. But because he has love and compassion, he is not rubbing it in your face. And he is serving you, like Jesus when he said, "I am God," he washed the feet of his disciples.
Swami: Just to show the humbleness. He said, "I'm here to serve." I also if you are really committed to the part, I'm here to serve you. I want to serve you on the spot. So, that's why I'm saying it's lets meet here, because from here, you will understand a lot of things. Either you will be able to practice them in your life, or you'll disagree with them and not practice them in your life, that's not the point. The point is that you can understand me and you can see that from inside myself, I may be crazy, but I am consistent. I am having integrity. Like there is a system of values in my head, and I live according to that system of values.
Interviewer: I mean, by most people's definition of the word crazy, you probably are, but that's just because it's a word that describes people that are outside of our understanding or whatever.
Interviewer: And I feel, I think I feel empathy for you, because I have felt misunderstood a lot of my life, and I see you being misunderstood a lot. So, there's also a connection through ... Like I think I know what that's like.
Swami: And being spiritual is the same. Also this [inaudible 00:19:47], this famous Osha, you maybe heard about him.
Interviewer: Yeah. He's copied so much of my work, it's ridiculous.
Swami: He simply said in one of his books, "The Buddha's," he considers himself to be a Buddha, he said, "The Buddha's are tax exempt." And you ask him why don't you pay your taxes? And he simply said, "Because I'm a special person, what did the society give to me? I am an enlightened being and I'm doing you great justice stepping among you. I consider myself a blessing for this planet. Even my farting here is giving you something good. And therefore, why should you make me pay tax like every Tom, Dick and Harry?"
Swami: "I should be tax exempt in a wise society. You don't just ask tax from the Dali Lama." The Dali Lama in his country when he was king, he was tax exempt because he was the king and the high priest.
Interviewer: In the UK, we actually have a law that says a house is tax exempt if a minister of a religion is living there or about to live there.
Swami: Okay. Something like that, but in 200 years ago, if you had been a monk, you couldn't be judged by secular court houses. There was a religious court, which judged monks and nuns. Because you were not be judged according to the rules of the world. You are to be judged by other rules.
Interviewer: There is a judgment, which I want to raise, because I think a couple of friends who know I'm coming to see you, I think they quite strongly want me to raise this subject. But I think they are a little bit more judgmental about it than I am, or at least I try not to be. I try to leave my judgements at the door as much as possible.
Swami: We should make a meeting with all these friends of yours.
Interviewer: I know.
Swami: Open, a round table.
Interviewer: Well I think some of them have spoken to you. Okay. What it is is, I'm probably going to sound judgemental, maybe there's some residual judgment there, and I apologize if there is.
Swami: Don't worry.
Interviewer: I have a friend and she did the TDC, and during one of her mandatory meetings with you as part of the TDC, you and she had sex. This is according to her. And then she was feeling regretful.
Swami: It may have been years ago.
Interviewer: It was long enough ago. It was at least a year or two ago. But anyway, I was noticing that looks bad to a lot of people for some reason.
Interviewer: And I just wondered, I want to be ... I guess what it is, is I like recommending the school to people. I recommend the level one, I recommend [Mockentaba's 00:22:27] teachings of level one in particular.
Swami: It's very noble of you that you think like this. I bet Justine, for example, who is American, she did exactly the same thing what you are doing now, 10 years ago.
Swami: And ever since now, she's teaching our Tantra workshops and so on, because she's completely okay with these things. This thing is happening less and less because I'm getting older and older.
Swami: Right. If you would have come here 10 years ago, or if you'd have known me 20 years ago, you would see that it happened all the time.
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah.
Swami: Yeah. Simply because I was a young stud and I could do these things.
Swami: It's again, a matter of values. If I see that somebody would benefit from tantric sex, I'm a teacher of tantric sex, and it's exactly like I would be a martial artist and you would want to learn Kung Fu from me. Should I give you a book of Kung Fu? Don't I show you like I'm telling you, stand up, take off your shirt and let me show you a few moves.
Swami: It's normal. If you are a Kung Fu teacher or a karate teacher, you spar. And people appreciate that you spar with them. When you go to a karate class, if the black belt guy is coming to you and showing you and correcting you and doing let's do this, in the end you do like this. Like thank you Guru. Thank you for showing me. Thank you that you wasted your time on me, instructing me and so on. So in tantric it's the same. Tantric is just a theory, it's a living transmission. So, it's like we do tantra. We don't just speak about tantra. These unfortunately infringes on this thing that teachers should not make love with their pupils.
Interviewer: Yeah. There's a strong belief in that.
Swami: But we are not in a school system. These people are not under age or something. We're talking about adults. I am not a teacher who gives you remarks and passes you the class, like you don't depend on me in any way. So I'm not exerting any of this. It's sexist because if you come and if a woman teacher takes you and teaches you tantra, you're going to write a praise worthy blog about it. Wow, I went to there and this woman turned me in to a miracle man. Then why can't a woman be turned in to a miracle woman by a male teacher? Like it's always more delicate with a man, all your friends will clap you on the shoulder, and say, "Yeah man, good job." It's like you got fucked by a tantric woman. How was it? Was she squeezing really hard?
Swami: It would be considered an adventure. But if a woman does it with me, or with some male teacher, it's like oh my God. I was like, why women don't have the right to do the same thing which men have the right to?
Swami: And there are a few other arguments to this, but remember it shouldn't be sexist. You should treat women the same way as you treat men.
Interviewer: I try to. Yeah.
Swami: It should not be ... Like these people are not underage and pupils in a school or something. They are adults and then you say if a woman had sex with her riding instructor, or with her golf teacher, that's not ... The golf teacher is not really a teacher. You can fuck your golf teacher as much as you want. And it happens all the time.
Interviewer: I mean, I'll reveal a bit more information which might be relevant. I was a lover of hers as well.
Interviewer: She was here for three months, and we were lovers for the first two of those three months. But she'd actually decided in the last month, she expressed some reluctance to be lovers because she had a lover back home. So, I said, "Well let's not be lovers for that last month." And so, it was like she was really sort of ... What's the word? Kicking herself after the incident with you, because she'd really wanted to make that last month ... So, she had some-
Interviewer: I wanted to make that last month. She had some conflicts and regrets and she was sort of thinking that that was that, like not-
Swami: I understand. So, remember my argumentation, that this... The things about this story, teachers with pupils... We're not really teachers with pupils in the way which is understood in the schooling system in England or something. It's a totally different circumstance. The second thing... I think I can do something I can do something good, and I'm not forcing myself upon a woman or something, like she agrees, she opens up and so on...
Swami: Then I don't see anything bad in it. In my values system there is nothing wrong with a man making love to a woman, especially if that woman is having a lot of fun, a lot of pleasure, and if she's opened up. I can tell you, we're simple, because we talk on this intelligent level. There're probably a hundred women in my life who had their first orgasm ever in their life with me. And then they went and they could have it with other men. I have worked like a sex therapist, I've been a male hooker. I was with women and then they were not frigid anymore. It has happened to me at least a hundred times in this life, that a woman had their first orgasm with me.
Interviewer: I think-
Swami: I'm simply... You can consider me a hooker, I don't have a problem with it.
Interviewer: I think some... [crosstalk 00:27:23] I think there's a correlation between intelligence-
Swami: I can't be humble enough with this, you know? I'm a sex worker, okay? I'm just providing some sexual services, if I [inaudible 00:27:31] and the woman accepts. I'm not going to rape her. I have met Tantra teachers who push themselves onto women and they were asked "What the heck did you do? What the heck was that?". They simply said, "I knew better than her. She was confused and she didn't even realize what she needed, and because I realized what she needed, I did it."
Swami: There is a parable issued by a saintly man of India called Ramakrishna. Ramakrishna says that ritual teachers are of three degrees. Exactly, he said, like the doctors. There are doctors that give you a remedy. Like, you ask them, 'I have asthma', and they say 'Take this'. They give it to you, then you never see them again. Like, they don't care if you took it, if it solved the problem, you just visited them and they gave you it. There are doctors of the second degree who, when you ask them for a remedy, they give it to you, they call you back after one week, they call you back after one month, they followup the case, and if the remedy was not good enough then they give you something additional or something, so basically they pay more attention.
Interviewer: Right, Right.
Swami: And then, he said, there are the doctors of the third kind, who if they give you the remedy and you don't take it, they put you down, they put their knee on your chest, and they stuff the remedy in your mouth. This is considered forbidden today in a democracy. In India, it was considered okay that the guru knows better than you, and if I think you need a beating, I'll just give you a beating for your own good. You won't like it, and you might not understand it, but I'm still going to do it. This is a complex of superiority that the gurus all over the world have, that we know better than you yourself know what you need.
Interviewer: Oh, yeah.
Swami: I'm not acting like the level three. I have given that up long time ago. Simply because the modern society is so democratic and so politically correct, I don't want to go there.
Interviewer: Yeah, I understand.
Swami: It will complicate my life too much. So for my own sake, I could be a better teacher than I am, you know? I could, but I'm not. But for the rest, remember there is this, like... If I see... Right now, for example, what's happened, even before you, there were two women who were here. Both of them, I advised them, seek yourself a partner. I like both of them, I could have done it with both of them. I'm not. As I'm getting older, I'm calming down, but normally I would have volunteered. I would have said "What you're saying is your cervix is hurting; when you're penetrated deep you have cervical pain. I can solve that in five meetings, probably, from the first. I can open your yoni like a flower."
Swami: I know that I can do it, and it's so difficult to restrain when I could make this woman happy in one week. This woman could blossom. And why wouldn't I do it, if I can? Just because some British guy is having some norms? I don't give a fuck on their norms. I know I can do it. So, it does happen in the world of Tantra, that when people are open and so on, these things are flowing. We don't have too much [inaudible 00:30:48].
Swami: I, as a guru, I have had a big scandal with one woman some five years ago, and ever since that time I took a decision. If a woman is not asking me directly to help her, like with her fear of physically with her, I won't do it, and I will not propose. So, since about five years, I'm not proposing, except if a woman says 'Can you help me with this?'. Even then, most of the times, I'm recommending advanced pupils of mine from the school, and I'm saying, why don't you go and see Keith or somebody, and so on, because they are fitting with you. I'm kind of matchmaking with people, so that I, personally, would be beyond this. Not because I really care about my image or my reputation, because I've spoiled my reputation for twenty years, you know-
Interviewer: You can still spoil it more, I think.
Swami: Less and less. Less and less, but that's not because I believe less and less in what I have to do. It's simply because I'm more busy, I'm more old, and it's time for the new generation to step in and take over responsibilities. For me, what I did was a healing and the spiritual help. That's how it looked from inside me. And now I'm passing it on to the next generation.
Swami: I'm not a sexual maniac, the 'If I don't have ten women every month, then new women every month, I feel unfulfilled'. I can be very detached from it, and that's why it's very easy for me to let go, and all that.
Interviewer: I'm someone who... I'm a little bit of a relativist, I think is the word. I try and... I mean, I once [inaudible 00:32:31], actually, and during that experience I had this strong realization that there was no right and wrong, which was very annoying to my ego, because I had lived my life being good, and to be told that [crosstalk 00:32:42] to be told that I was no better than the worst of the worst, it was like, well that's just downright unfair. I'm digressing, but I try not to judge, because... And yet, I do see Agama as providing more value than harm, so I guess there's a judgment in that area as well.
Swami: In my opinion, we're trying to provide zero harm, following the medical dictum, which is "Primum non nocere", "First of all, don't harm". If medicine harms, then it's not good. Like in the justice system, if you condemn one innocent person, then you fucked up really bad. If you don't manage to condemn a couple of guilty persons, that's because the justice system is imperfect, but if you take a totally innocent person and condemn them without being guilty, then you have fucked up really bad. So it's like "Primum non nocere", 'First of all, don't harm'. In this school, I'm guiding myself by this principle. But again, it's like...
Interviewer: I should go soon, because I don't [crosstalk 00:33:50]
Swami: Yes, yes, somebody's out there-
Interviewer: Yeah, but I-
Swami: I would have liked to have a longer discussion-
Interviewer: I know, I know.
Swami: Even with a group of people, and I would tell you where I'm coming from. I'm coming from a crazy place. I think I'm the salt of the earth, and that's why I think I'm doing something good.
Interviewer: I like the way you phrase it, because it's reassuring. If you can talk about your insanity, then you're kind of not so insane, if you know what I'm saying. Anyway, thank you very much.
Swami: Most people who know me think I'm a very reasonable man, and I would like to be able to talk more. I like your intelligence, and I like the fact that you are raising very relevant issues and so on, and I would like to clarify them. Maybe you are the one who can write the disclaimer on my site, on my internet site, or write a little brochure given to all the beginners-
Interviewer: I think I could.
Swami: In the beginning when they come, so they understand, look, swami and the advanced teachers of our government, they placed themselves in this position. You might not understand it, you might be on a totally different [inaudible 00:34:49], but be aware, stay away if you have any qualms about this, or something. These people are different, they come from a different world. They've stood on their head too much and they're a bit nuts.
Interviewer: Yeah. And I think your decision to not be the third type of doctor... because if you're too far away from society, then you can't build a bridge to cross, so it's the wise thing to do if you want to influence the world.
Swami: I do want to help the world-
Interviewer: I understand that one. Thank you very much, Swami.
Swami: Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you.
Interviewer: Thank you.
Swami: And you have exhilarated me with these things, because I'm a... Honestly [inaudible 00:35:28] I'm very much wanting to share my world with people like you. Either you accept it or not, but at least you know there is a guy living in Thailand who thinks like that. That's what I learned from my guru. [crosstalk 00:35:41]
Interviewer: I'll try and book another appointment for next time I'm in Thailand.
Swami: Please, do so.
Interviewer: Thank you.
Swami: We can even plan a little round table.
Interviewer: Yeah, I would love that.
Swami: [inaudible 00:35:51] more, and that are even more curious than you are.
Interviewer: Oh, for sure. Okay, thank you, Swami.
Swami: And you.